I'm not sure i even have the power to fully articulate how i feel about this, so please ignore me if i make no sense. :)
Do you ever get the feeling, that as human beings, we've just really stuffed everything up?
Our lives as a whole are full of war, hate and fear. We can't even coexist anymore. We actually kill each other. Our countries invest millions of dollars trying to figure out better ways to kill our enemies, who are humans just like us. It breeds hatred for other people, when the only difference is their skin colour, or the country they come from, or their religious beliefs.
Millions of people starve. Those who lose money end up on the streets. People murder, and abuse, and steal. Our economy has collapsed on itself. There are homeless and jobless. And we're polluting our own Earth.
Why are we here? What are we aiming for in our lives?
Is it to be the boss? As humans, we seek to control everything. We use animals like machines for our own benefit. Then we created our own machines that do what we want. We tame animals as pets and we own them. We seek promotions, to climb the job ladder, to have people below us, to have people working for us.
We've tamed the skies and the seas. What is left? The moon? Planets and stars? We don't have control of them yet, so we dream of the day when we do. Past empires had the sole aim of expanding. They wanted to own more land. They wanted to crush other cities and people, so that they could be the number 1.
Our lives are about trying to be the number 1. We want to be in control, and when we meet another human, we want to be better than them.
But why? What is the point? Do we aim for higher and higher because it betters our lives?
And when our lives are better, we're happier. That is success.
But we as humans created success itself. We created money, and jobs, and the ideal family and group of friends. We created fame and fortune. It was all created by us.
We aim for it, but we have no real reason, because our definition of success is one we created.
We have religion. Why is there religion? Is it to control the masses? Is it to give us a set of rules to follow, to maintain peace and order?
Religion has been fuel for war. It has been fuel for hate. It has been fuel for murder. If religion exists to create peace, then it has failed. People construe words of holy books and use them as excuses to further their own agendas.
Civilisations have started war, because their religious beliefs are different to their enemies. Gays like me have been killed because people take the words of a 'God' and twist them into a reason to kill, even up to this day. People in past have been banished from society, and had their lives ruined or put to an end, if they break rules set by their fellow peoples' religion.
(I believe) our lives are 100% contrived.
If a baby born today was to be put into a world with prehistoric man, they would grow up like the people around them. Sure, they might stand a bit taller and have less hair, but we are no different inside to people from those days. The only difference we have is the world we grew up in.
And we grow up in families and go to schools. We are taught to respect people in power, and use our manners. We learn what is funny and not funny, and what is bad and good. We are supposed to get jobs and contribute to society and get married and play happy families and reproduce, so that the cycle repeats itself.
The lives we live today can not really be the 'real' (perhaps 'intended') 'human way'. We live in a world that we created slowly, with each layer coming about by chance. Think of the famous inventors throughout history, and of the explorers, and leaders. What if one had been trampled by an elephant? What if one had been stabbed or shot, or never been created in one moment of sex? Our lives would be drastically, unimaginably different than they are now.
Success might have a different meaning. We would be aiming for different things. Good and bad would have different actions associated with them.
Am i making sense? lol. I was thinking about this while i was walking home from school because my iPod wasn't charged. :P
I'm sorry if things that make sense in my head don't translate.
So everything we know today was created by past events. Every event, major to minor, has shaped how we live our lives. If things had taken a slightly different turn, thousands, or even hundreds of years ago, we would have an incredibly different life today.
Humans only live like we do because we grew up in the world around us. It's too bad that things have kind of imploded, with war, and racism, and homophobia, and crime, and money and everything like that.
So why do we live, and what is the meaning for our existence? Honestly, i don't think the meaning of life for humans is any different from the meaning of life for a cat, or a snail, or an ant, as the only difference i see is our brain complexity.
What the meaning is, though, i have no clue.
Maybe it is something we can't even articulate, with the words we created. ;)
I'd like to keep this untitled.
14 years ago
43 comments:
MB, looks like you stumbled on a little existentialism. Anywayz, most educated people in the world ask themselves the same questions that you are. The truth is human life is beautiful, dont concentrate on the terrible things we are capable of. We have self awareness, we have the power to control futures and learn from our past, we have the ability to love, and to write songs, and paint pictures.
Also, a few things that I think your wrong about.
"Our countries invest millions of dollars trying to figure out better ways to kill our enemies"
I think our countries, now anywayz, invest millions to DEFEND a prosperous way of life. The pursuit of happiness is a born right. You would be hard pressed to find an industrialized country that invests millions on the prospect of how best to kill another country. But, you do find countries, like mine, that invest billions in foreign aid to help the sick and hungry, billions to "denuclearize" the world, and billions on stopping war.
Also.
People construe words of holy books and use them as excuses to further their own agendas.
Not necessarily true, I cant speak about the Torah, but the Koran and the Bible both spew hate, bigotry, and violence, without the need to misconstrue, its in plain text. I can prove my point to anyone that would like to question that statement btw. (For instance, we as gay men are supposed to be put to death by any good christian, its in plain text, Lev. 20:13)
But anywayz, man has been pondering the meaning of life sense forever, no need to get caught up in an unanswerable question. Just live dude, and try to be happy.
*hugz*
What a thoughtful post.
I don' think anyone has an answer, only opinions... so I'll give you mine...
I may not be the most religious person in the world, but I don't think religion is the cause of wars and suffering. Merely used as an excuse for wars and suffering. You don't have to be an avid church-goer to realize that all religions have a common goal: to teach people to love one another and live in peace. It's sad that some use it as an excuse to hate others, or pervert it into a reason for war.
As for the meaning of existence... well this may seem all flowery and cliche, but I believe we are each here for a reason or purpose in history, or in "the grand scheme." That is not to say that I think our place in history is fixed, rather that we come with a kind of "potential" in life. To put it another way: We are provided with opportunities. The meaning of life is whatever meaning we create out of our lives and in the lives of those around us, for better or worse.
It's up to YOU what the meaning of YOUR life is.
There was a famous American astronomer by the name of Carl Sagan. He wrote a book called, "Cosmos." In it, the was a poem about the same things you are talking about now. It was called, "The Pale Blue Dot." I invite you to listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
hey hey!
Maybe, just maybe, there's no meaning. Maybe trying to find a meaning is also a human need.
You were articulate, btw!
=)
Rapha
I think that materially there has been a lot of progress from the condition of prehistoric man. The baby of today born into a prehistoric setting would share the short lifespan of the time, quite possibly with violence approximating that which anthropologists have observed among various primitive peoples. There has been material progress, there has been scientific progress, there has been artistic/musical progress. There has been philosophical progress.
This is not to say that progress has been unbroken, or that there have not been setbacks. But I, for one, would not willingly choose to trade my place for one in a prehistoric clan.
Many of the problems you cite arise from our failure to live according to the core moral teaching of Judaism and Christianity: love God above all love others as you love yourself/as God loves you. See Benedict XVI's latest encyclical, Charity in Truth.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
What I'm trying to say is I think what you are looking for is Christianity, authentic Christianity — not the loveless, joyless moralism of many misguided Christians, but the joy of love and eternal life.
Well, every other species on this world competes for resources; for mates; for territory, etc. We've not "kicked it up a notch". But I agree with Randy, we are capable of love and friendship, hate is not all we do. And yes, you were rather articulate, btw.
those humans are funny creatures arent they ;)
I remember the anxiety I felt when I was your age, it all seemed to be going down hill, now I know it is, hehe, but seriously life is -in my opinion- what you do with it. Life can be a place of nightmares and cruelty if you focus on the negative, but life can also be a place where people care about each other, a place of tolerance and acceptance, it might sound impossible, it's hard, but not impossible, and the best way to start changing this world into something you like is really simple: start with yourself.
When you start giving and caring for people they start giving back, it is really something wonderful people always forget: you cannot ask if you do not give first. Take for example bullies, they usually attack people because they don't feel good about themselves, so when they found someone happy they try to make them feel as bad as they do because they lack something you have.
Certainly when you give love to your parents they give you love back, when you compliment a friend he or she compliments you back, and so if you extend this network you can get really impressive results, you should try it one day. I can tell you from experience that when you dedicate your life to make someone else's life better you contribute to making your life better and therefore you begin to focus on what's important and start getting results back, OR you can keep on wondering if things are ever going to improve and waiting for the guy who makes that change happen while you see demise all around you.
Keep up the spirit, the world won't change overnight and when people get desperate thinks can only turn from bad to worse. Take a minute to breathe and remember that if life gets you down you are never alone.
hugz
All I can say is find your truth. I've been looking for mine lately, it's a life long journey.
I suppose I'm an existentialist in a way. Life is absolutely absurd when it comes right down to it. Everything is a matter of faith. For those with religion, it is faith in a god, for those without religion it is often faith in logic (for all you militant atheists out there, I challenge you to prove logic to me (don't try too hard, you can't, it's self-evident, like god))... but I digress. Everything is a matter of faith, and so you much choose what you have faith in.
Myself, I like to have faith in love. That simple ideal that comes from perhaps being young, ignorant, and being enamored with the hippie culture of the 1960s (minus the drugs and sex). Love is what brings people together, what can draw them apart, what keeps peace, and what makes war. We as people need to find the love that will lead to peace. That's the message I take from Christianity above all else (and I'm not a religious person (self-professed agnostic here), the message of love.
Haha it's obvious I have thought about all this far too much. Perhaps the world is screwed, but maybe it's not. No matter how quickly we all go down in flames, there will always be kindness in the world, there will always be love.
To add one final (and perhaps lengthy) digression, I think life is in a constant state of dynamic change. If you're not moving, adapting, changing, your dead. There are ebbs and flows in history, or if you will, opposing sides. It's all a matter of picking a side. Fight for what you believe in, despite the impossibility of the task. Life is absurd so try to make the best of it you can.
On last thing.
Smile :D
Matt
@Rhythym faith in logic? Thing is there is no faith in logic, logic is its own sustaining entity, something is logical or its not. I can always prove something that is logical by using systematic steps of reasoning.
Also, god is not self evident (whatever that means.) God is not logical, nor systematically validated. True, I do have FAITH in science, only because science determines its product after thorough testing and trials to determine a LOGICAL conclusion, forever changing, forever getting better, fluid, challengeable, and reproducible. My faith goes as far in that I dont have the resources to do the testing myself, therefore I must believe what the scientist is saying, yet I am open to challenge said scientist with another testable hypothesis. Religion is ridged, never changing, untestable, unproven, and cant be questioned b/c of automatic and dogmatic reverence.
Plus for all the militant theists out there (dont bomb or shoot me up please) the burden of proof lies with you, YOU have to prove it, for logic makes no fantastical claims like religion.
Atheists want a hospital built instead of a church. Atheists want deeds done instead of prayers.
-A militant Atheist
PS Sorry MB, I dont like it when ppl automatically dismiss atheism with misguided claims.
:-) I love you mboy; you have 'mirrored' (pun?) my own thoughts as of late. I think existentialism has already been mentioned before, but I prefer biological explanations to philosophical ones, all things being equal.
I think the answer to much of this is that we have evolved a 'perfect storm' of physiology, in which the traits that motivate us to grow end up being the same that cause us to destroy. Is it possible for a more evolved species to better coexist? This is a tricky question; I think we certainly have the biological ability to coexist more peacefully (use more rational decision making). However, we have cultural factors affecting our evolution now. As you mention, we have religious influences, which have spurious utility.
These are all fun questions to think about, and all of them lead to one, which is best summed up by Albert Camus: "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest -- whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories -- comes afterward".
I don't think we have a good answer, but "we dont know" is good enough to keep me interested for another day :-)
Much Love-- my philosophical buddy,
Steve
P.S. my current blog post is related to this a little, and you might find it interesting.
I changed this so many times before I settled on this comment I still feel I didn't say what I wanted to but this is what I finally settled on and if it didn't make any sense let me know asap plz :)
Actually I understood everything you said crystal clear.
(using a big and all powerful voice) SCHOLARS, and GREAT THINKERS, and the GREAT MINDS OF OUR TIME, and MIRRORBOY... "huh?" you say well yeah for this topic I can put you all in the same category b/c those people are supposed to be the smart, wise, and knowledgeable (and they are) but they even them can't give a good answer and we know you haven't sat done and spent lots and lots of time and effort to study history in depth as they have.
I do admit we have our flaws ( I am perfect though lol jk) but as not all of us are trying to hurt each other and some people do want to make things better for everyone.
In the end if you don't get anything I said I hope you get this, only YOU can decide what's going to happen in your life while you are alive
The saying goes, "Only 2 things are guaranteed in life, death and taxes"
But my saying is "Only thing guaranteed in life is death"
And the question is, what do plan on defining life as? B/c in the end this is the root cause of peace and war
Randy, you said i was wrong about investing millions of dollars trying to kill our enemies. Okay, it may be true that we are in fact investing millions of dollars trying to defend ourselves, but that's not the point. The point is that people are trying to kill each other.
:)
Btw, i just found two typos!! WHY DID NOBODY INFORM MEEE!? lol
Also, i'm glad people understood the point i was making. :)
WOW This is the most incredible set of comments to such a well written cry of despair I have ever seen in one place - the love, care and compassion[plus a lot of wisdom] in each readers comments is overwhelming. I think there are a lot of psychiatrists out out there that should be very worried about their jobs.Great stuff for MB to think about.You are all people that anyone would be proud to call their friends.I can't think of anything more that hasn't already been said.
@Randy
Ummm, actually, logic does require faith. To make any logical conclusion, you must have faith that the logic used is valid. For example, to many Christians, God's existence is a logical conclusion. My point is, logic is entirely subjective.
I also disagree with your claim that religion is rigid and never changing. Both Christianity an Islam are proof of change in religion, new religions being created based on teachings of the old one.
And you quote Leviticus?! That book is only used by people that wish to prove that homosexuality is un-christian. It also contains passages stating women and dwarfs cannot approach the altar.
I dislike the way you try to state the obvious superiority of Atheism. In my opinion it makes you just as bad as the people claiming the superiority of their religion. I'm not dismissing it, by the way. One of my strongest beliefs is freedom of religion, and everyone's choice of their own, or to not have one as the case may be.
I really liked the last paragraph of your first comment though, I think it was great advice.
@Rhythm
I like your opening paragraph, it's good advice.
@Mirrorboy
It's great you're thinking about this stuff. But don't get too bogged down in it. I think people need to find there own answers for this kinda thing, good luck with finding yours. Love you sweetie.
haha i'm seriously thinking about changing of race, humans sucks... maybe became a martian ^^
Would you go with me please ?? =D
Hey, i missed you these 2 last days ^^
Your post is really good writen, and TRUE.
And if i understand it, it obviously have a sens, no ?? =D
<3
"we","us","our": who are they?
death, war, hate, starvation == bad;
oh, if only it were /different/, everything would be better!
success, fame, fortune == bad;
=> our (who's "our"?) lives are contrived;
oh, if only people would seek things that /really/ matter!
is this reality or is all you see a reflection of yourself on other people?
@southern - I wouldn't call it a cry of despair. lol. I was just saying/typing what was on my mind. :P
There's a lot that's wrong with the world. Humans have got within their power to completely trash the planet.
But it's also within the power of humans to change the way the world works, to make it a better place for all. And that's what we've got to fight for. Even when it seems hopeless remember that, in our own small way, we can help.
damn that was really good. ive never thought of it that way. wow, good shit.
good questions. keep asking them and search for the answers. maybe, some day, you will find that faith holds more answers than you initially think, or that are commonly portrayed.
Think twice about getting any new batteries if this is the kind of philosophy you can write when you let your mind run a bit!
Congratulations - welcome to a whole mega-thingy area of almost endless debate.
Soon you should be able to sit around drinking pop with your friends and debating these things.
Just like what we did.
Psh what can I say...
another piece of good writing proven to connect with a greatly-thinking mind..
You speak all the truths we try to hide from ourselves :P
Mirrorboy for world leader!
You've posed interesting questions that have befuddled philosophers for ages. Now, I'm certainly no philosopher, but I can offer my thoughts.
At its core, I believe human nature has not changed throughout the millennia. Sure, civilizations came and went, society cycles through periods of war and peace, and technology progresses. But we, in no way, have become any more evolved or enlightened compared to our ancestors - and you've said as much in your post.
Why? Because we are human. We are animals - no more elevated than lions or tigers or snakes. Our actions and our intelligence are a double-edged sword; we're capable of so much good and charity, and we're capable of so much bad and destruction. It is what we choose to do, our words and our actions, that determine the outcome on an individual level.
So why're we here? What's the point of it all? Let me ask you this: why does it matter? What makes you happy in life, what fulfills you? WHY do those things make you happy and satisfied? Things are what they are.
I believe that our purpose in life is to find a niche for ourselves to survive and (hopefully) thrive in. And that's different for every individual. The world is a complex tapestry that no one can hope to understand, but we all make up its threads. Life is what you make of it.
In all my studies and research, I've come across a singular truth: it's much easier to destroy than to create. This applies to everything - a paper, a project, a life. Creation is thus precious.
Lastly, and this may be interesting, some things do happen because in a funny little way, they're destined to. In evolution, there's a concept that certain features must develop first before a more "advanced" feature may develop because things build upon it. Now, feature one may arise independently multiple times throughout natural history. To your last point, that so much of human history came about by chance - I will say that some of the major parts were "destined" to happen. Pyramids arose seemingly independent in various cultures. The domestication of crop and animals are widespread across the globe. While things happen by chance, they happen multiple times throughout history so at some point it survives. Yeah, things would've been different, but at least we'd still have the wheel. :P
Randy: The Torah (more or less) = the Old Testament of the Bible. The OT was quite brutal and God was vengeful (though also close to "His people"). The NT was basically just about Jesus, a pronounced break from the rather bloody OT. I'd much prefer to read the NT than the OT, as the OT makes me wonder how such a brutal and vengeful text could promote love.
An interesting thing to note: there's a passage in the Dao De Jing (Daoism/Taoism) that's eerily similar to the Beatitudes. Buddha is eerily similar to Christ, so much so that when Christianity reached Asia, people saw it as a "fulfillment" of Buddhism. Perhaps there are parts of religion that echo true across all of humanity.
@ Randy — You say, "Atheists want a hospital built instead of a church. Atheists want deeds done instead of prayers."
Theists want both hospitals and churches, deeds and prayers.
Maybe the unique thing about humans and our more complex brains is that we CAN create our own meaning. Idk, just a thought.
Sounds like you're on the road to at least a few courses in philosophy when you get to university! Based on your comments I would get a head start and begin reading the works of Soren Kirkegaard (save Nietzsche for later, he might depress you)
@Randy - I think Tombi04 pretty much summed up my response already. You have to have "faith" that logic works. If you call it self-evident and cannot prove it, what separates your logic from another's god? They are both ways of explaining the world.
It also seems that you are as set in your ways about atheism as Christians are about theism. I just want to be clear that you're not really all that different. I'm just trying to bridge the gap.
I do agree about service to man though, I think that is an unfortunate omission from modern Christianity.
@tombi04 - thanks for responding with words better than my own before I could! Make me look like a chump haha. But that response gives you innumerable points in my book. :)
@Mboy- look what you've gone and started again. Meaningful discourse that unfolds in a civilized (if not verbose) manner. Disgraceful, this is the internet home of the flame wars and trolling! Way to bring a little class into it. :D
@Tombi
I naturally hint at the superiority of atheism, cuz I think its superior, lol. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I BELIEVE common sense always prevails over blind faith.
Anywayz, sure logic does require faith. A different kind of faith. Its faith in the veracity of base principles. Logic cannot be constructed without unchangeable constant rules and axioms.
The exact definition of faith is _Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. (definition taken from dictionary.com)
The problem with religion is that it requires NO logic at all to be evident, it just HAS to be true. It requires no evidence, no equation, no LOGIC. Where as anything logical requires, evidence, processes, rules, axioms, and common sense. Logic may be relative to the beholder, but it does not change the base use of what logic is. Just b/c I think leprechauns are logical, doesnt mean they are.
You do not require faith to not believe in Zeus? Or Santa Claus?
We are all atheists man, I just take it one god further.
And religion does change, you are correct (which by the way is a contradiction to divine word, for that should never change.) But the conclusion remains the same; there is an invisible sky daddy that created us. Where as science and logic always seem to tweak and change their conclusion off of evidence, process, and control. Science can indeed be wrong, religion can not.
Ultimately logic and atheism does NOT have, or need to conform to, any type of scripture, dogma, doctrine, laws, songs, chants, special deeds, foods, obligations, restrictions, meditations, physical and mental practices, trinkets, meeting houses, paid leaders and other parasites or confirmations other than the simple one of realizing that there are NO invisible sky daddys in the closet, under the bed, up in the sky or any other place ‘they’ deem it fitting for such an entity to reside.
And of course i quote Leviticus, would you rather I just ignore the bad stuff of christianity and focus on the good? Thats hypocritical I think.
Anywayz, your dead on with freedom of religion, I just hope you include freedom from religion!
Great points btw, and I would love to continue this conversation on MSN, or a blog post.
I frequently look around at everything humanity has built and marvel at how "unnatural" it is. None of the stuff we have really "belongs." Instead, we created it and put it there.
*shrugs*
It's interesting that this very worthwhile conversation started because Mirrorboy's IPod wasn't working. Maybe we should all do a bit more walking, leaving our IPods at home once in a while. Who knows what we might discover about ourselves and our world?
Just a thought...
Well, MBoy, I wouldn't try to rationalize what we are incapable of understanding. My mom always said that the veneer of civilization is damned thin. For millions of years we've made a living eating other creatures who are slower and less developed than we are. Evolution is story of the survival of the fittest. Its near opposite is the force of Christian morality, a very demanding ethical construct that is still the ideal among sentient creatures who are capable of undersanding and empathizing with the suffering of others of their kind. Our challenge is to achieve that sort of high-mindedness, even though it may compell us to destroy those who are not so and are the enemies of our civilization. We take arms out of a sense of self-preservation, if nothing else. The most deluded of warriors are those who think that they have God on their side. It's a great motivating factor, but no less contemptible for its silly belief that a true god would take sides in our squabbles. I believe that no human is capable of understanding the will of God. As for the goal of human existence, each of us can call his life a success if he was an honorable part of the progress of civilization.
Before he was killed in a car wreck, my dearest friend wrote in his diary that love was the only emotion that mattered, even if it was for a dog. Based on your expressed sentiment I declare that you have started life among the honorable people. Don't despair if you find a few potholes in the road. Part of the process is the nobility of the struggle.
Whenever I think about people I tend to get very confused, cruel, mean or bad I don't like them.
I'l put up with the bad though because good people really are worth it. You know those people you know that make you laugh or smile. The ones who can pull you out of a bad mood they make morons tolerable.
I know this isnt really what you were on about. But if I had to choose a reason to live (not that I would) but if I had to, it would be the people that brighten up my day.
Phew. It's a big undertaking reading all those comments at once before i can approve them. :P
Wow, what a thoughtful and meaningful post. While I understand it seems like a cry of feeling a bit lost and meaningless, I don't think this post need be sad as people interpret it.
Sure, it seems like in the grand scheme of things we are pointless and meaningless, but so what? How does that impact our life? This past year, I adopted a new personal philosophy, and that was based on doing what made me happy. I stopped doing things that made OTHER people happy. Often, these acts made me unhappy and even depressed at times.
I know this sounds selfish, but it really isn't. This doesn't mean I didn't help and old man cross the street because it didnt make me happy. I am talking about the big life issues. One of those was accepting that I am gay. I haven't told many people yet, but I am much happier knowing that I am comfortable with who I am and not letting other people take that from me.
@Randy
you say you believe common sense always prevails over blind faith. Firstly, I wanna say I think it's great you have your own beliefs.
However, that's an absolutist statement, so it's one I really have a problem with. The one thing I am certain of is that nothing is certain.
You say logic has a different kind of faith, one that relies on the veracity of base principles. Does Christianity not rely on the veracity of the base principles contained within the bible? Religions must also be constructed using unchangeable base axioms.
Now, I typed in faith to dictionary.com to see for myself. What you call the 'exact definition' is one from a page of about twenty or so. So yeah, I wouldn't call yours the exact definition. I personally liked the opening statement of the Bible Dictionary entry on the same page. "Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true." Even the Christians know that while faith has these days come to have connotations of religion, it can be about anything. But yeah, in modern English, all on the page are valid.
Religion does require logic, albeit rather circular logic.
To disbelieve there is a God, you must believe there is no God.Ergo, it requires belief and faith to disbelieve in anything. Disbelief isn't the same as not having belief in something. Prove that, without reasonable doubt, there is no God. Go on, I bet you can't. It's as impossible as proving God doesn't exist.
Also, we aren't all Atheists. Atheism requires the existence of no Gods whatsoever. It comes from the Greek word 'athe(os)', meaning godless.
Religion changing isn't contradiction to the divine word. You are right the divine word mustn't change. However, Religion isn't the word itself, but the way it is interpreted. Religions do not all reach the same conclusion. In fact, I must state here that your view on religion seems entirely based on the three main abrahamic religions. In Buddhism, there isn't a God. And your active disbelief in the existence of God is part of your religion, Atheism. It's a simple one, with a lot less to it, and it's in no way organized, but it is a religion. The simplicity of it being a benefit to it is arguable, however.
My problem with you quoting Leviticus is the fact that it's Old Testament. The Old Testament is contained withing the Bible because it is the scripture from which Christianity arose, but it is not Christianity. The New Testament is. That's why there are even Bible's that contain only the New Testament. Jesus' teachings of love replace the ones that came before. I also find it somewhat amusing that when you originally quoted it, you said you "can't speak about the Torah, but the Bible and the Koran both spew hate", yet the Torah is actually where you are quoting from when you quote Leviticus. Now, I also don't like that you speak of three holy books, using their content as justification of your view on religion as a whole, when they all originate from one of the three.
I would like to continue this discussion with you too. My msn is tombi04@live.com, or feel free to comment on my blog if you would rather.
@Tombi
I cant let you have the last word!!! I am right, you are wrong!!!
Nah, j/k I look forward to talking with you on msn.
@tombi04
I haven't read this thread at all, so this is out of context. And I too would love to discuss this on msn.
However, there is a difference in 'disbelieving' their is a god and the 'absense' of a belief in god. The latter is atheism, the former is a misunderstanding of atheism. You can call atheism a religion-- but it has no value-- you're just liberally defining religion.
Having an absense of a belief in god doesn't require faith-- it requires humility.
However- I do agree (as would atheists) that claiming 'there is no god' would be as spurious as claiming that there is one.
To confuse the matter further is agnosticism and the general misunderstanding of it. It's an orthoganal concept to theism/atheism. One can be an agnostic theist-- although I don't believe most christians are. I label myself a weakly agnostic atheist: I do not believe that I can have the knowledge to know whether a god exists, nor do I have a belief in god.
I will go back and read this, because you guys may have covered all of this-- and if so I apologize-- but I just can't help myself :-)
Much Love,
Steve
Made complete sence to me. I agree humans are the problem but we can't do away with them we just need to get back to managing what we do better. I too wonder why and what the hell are we doing. Your not alone in your thoughts there bud.
Be safe
"Do you ever get the feeling, that as human beings, we've just really stuffed everything up?"
I know we did - but it wasn't me honest.
"We actually kill each other."
This is quite normal for large mamals.
"Millions of people starve."
This is symptom of over-population; encoraged by most 'religions'.
"And we're polluting our own Earth."
Yeah. I thought we just agreed that.
"Why are we here? "
Because we are. There is no reason. We are just an over-developed parasite on a small blue-green planet at the outer edge of one of x billion galaxies.
"What are we aiming for in our lives?"
To be happy - that's me.
"Is it to be the boss? "
No don't really care about that.
"We've tamed the skies and the seas. "
I don't think we have.
"We have religion. "
You may have. I don't.
"Why is there religion? "
Because people are gulible
"Is it to control the masses? "
Its used that way
That's enough. Bored now.
Love Tigs.
PS Stop the worry. Just get on with it.
If you ever want to cheer yourself up about humanity, go near a baby or a toddler and it doesn't matter what they have in their hands they try to give it to you..... hope for humanity ....perhaps?
mboy
sure its fucked up out there but lets be serious for a minute because for all the bad we humans do we also do a ton of good
for every country at war with each other there are examples of countires and peoples helping each other out.
when a major earthquake occurs or natarul disaster millions are raised for peoples and help is sent all over the world
so i firmly disagree that our lives are full of war but rather war is a part of our lives and that is unfortunate, but it casued by hate and greed which are always here and within us all
we can coexist i do believe that and i do see more good than bad in this world its here, and enemeis is such a trifle term enemies are just people who have different goals
ok and western democracies the only people who are starving at least in the one i live in are spending the governments money not on food but other desitres because our soceities take care of people, and before you yell i know there are countries who either dont or cant afford to take care of their populations.
economies are always cyclic and now yes it looks bad but just today the nubers are looking better and the market is up 20% this year already ok so its my job to know that :)
why are we here, sure its a ogod question but i would rather focus on what we can do here and at me im just waking up every day and trying to be happy. I work to make money to do things i want to do and buy things i want to buy
and seeking promotions and stuff is the system but you can work for yourself cause i dont chase anyhting im just trying to get along and make a couple of dollars
why do we seek success and challenges i believe there is a reason and its genetics what you see today is only th eremeinants of humans when they sought food and shelter those cavemen you would place a new child with would still be seeking the same things they protected their ground and famileis and expanded their empires its human to do so and we our generations didnt invent it.
Religion well other than organizes the masses into clubs or groups it sucks. OK that being said i do not believe religion is responsible for war no i believe greed and selfishness are, gods words are just used as an excuse to hide the greed. And gays are killed and hurt for the same reasons i think.
so why do we live, well why worry about that it is happening and we cant change that. i'de rather focus on what we can do in this life and how beautiful we can all be
maybe john lennon was right when he sang his song imagine
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
so you see my friend your thoughts are not unusal and yea i know where you are coming from
I'm part of the problem but i also can be part of the solution
love ya, take care and be safe my friend
bob
Great post. Although many people have already told their POW, I'd like to add my 2 cents.
Esentially humans are just animals. And therefore we have those useful impulses for gathering and securing food, spread our genetic code and keep rivals away. And since we're social animals instead of überpredators like lions or sharks we need help from other humans, so we have the tribes (and then the nations).
That's we invest so much in weapons, so we can keep the other tribes (nations) away from our food (or women, or gold or whatever).
However, we have an advantage: our brain. It isn't just the primal brain of an "animal", instead centuries of social evolution have made it into another hungry belly, but hungry for culture, for music, for beauty. And for philosophy, like you did in your post :P
About religion, I guess it comes out of our horror vacui, the fear to the idea that maybe there's nothing out there. We always look for a reason for everything. When an airplane crashes we have social panic until we know how has that happened, and why. Nowadays science gives us many answers, but before reaching this stage we needed some explanation that science couldn't then provide: therefore magic and religion.
Of course religion plays a role in binding a society together. Our God is the right one and/or is much more powerful than the God of the neighboring tribe (nation). Does God exist? Can't say. But in any case, it's just the traditional method to encourage social unity. Most religions preach the same, once you unwrap them of the "local colors": get well along your neighbors, love your family, don't go stealing and killing people (unless they are foreigners).
So yeah, we aren't so special as we'd like to believe. But we aren't also so bad. At least we have the capability of thinking from the other's point of view, and the impulse to help our fellow humans (or empathy, if you want to use that name).
@mboy "Btw, i just found two typos!! WHY DID NOBODY INFORM MEEE!? lol"
Be careful what you ask for! My entire office brings me their stuff to proofread - I guess that creative writing teacher I had in 12th grade (much like Mrs. OC was to you), and the minor in English in college made me rather anal retentive about proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I can write in "online speak" and use slang when it's appropriate, but I prefer proper English, whether you're writing it in Australia, Britain, or the States.
Jay
Post a Comment