tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post3442290105993962740..comments2023-08-19T00:47:57.215+10:00Comments on Mirrorboy's Blog: Religion. Yup. Here We Go!Mirrorboyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09412419038822947079noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-4957918574664051182009-05-21T14:34:13.983+10:002009-05-21T14:34:13.983+10:00Planetx_123:
But scientific methodology is flawed ...Planetx_123:<br />But scientific methodology is flawed all the time . . . o_O It's completely dependent on the technology of the time, and studies can be poorly designed or well-designed.<br /><br />I'm by no means arguing for intelligent design. However, I don't see how it's contradictory to say that there might be a reason for the way things develop the way they do. Even evolutionary pathways seem constricted and "ordered" to some degree.<br /><br />Emotions offer "efficiency" so that "performance" can be allocated elsewhere. We already use 100% of our brains, so to increase cognitive capacity would likely mean increases in brain size. Currently, that's not feasible otherwise women would have a TERRIBLE time giving birth, and they might not be able to walk well.<br /><br />Btw, the appendix isn't useless. True, it's less useful in industrialized societies. But the appendix has a function, albeit a small one. It's not ENTIRELY vestigial.<br /><br />I don't think it's possible for emotions to become vestigial. You need a biological motivator, a means to drive an organism to do things. Also, there have been studies that suggest "gut instinct," or emotion, more often than not can lead to a correct answer. Think about it: if you like two scarves, and in every which way they're identical except for color, which one do you choose? The one that looks better to you. Emotion is a tie-breaker, in a sense.<br /><br />Anyway, none of this has anything to do with religion or the nature of God, but that's okay. :PAekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12183623849361560922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-54993793348484531152009-05-21T07:57:25.396+10:002009-05-21T07:57:25.396+10:00@Mboy
I love this conversation, and I hope we aren...@Mboy<br />I love this conversation, and I hope we aren't treading into tedium.<br /><br />@Aek<br />I understand what you are talking about, and I think we are on the same page-- but since I am relentlessly stubborn, I wanted to clarify:<br /><br />We need to agree on a definition of science. What I am terming science is probably a misnomer. I really mean the methodology of science. Is this methodology flawed, and in what way? What would be a better way to go about investigating reality? I will whole heartedly agree that scientists are flawed (as all humans are)... but this does not mean the methodology is flawed. Maybe we can hope that through evolution we can become less flawed and improve our track record. However, your statement is only <I>supporting</I> my argument <I>against</I> self-philosophized ideas.<br /><br />Re 'chance': my illustration of the chickens was only to illustrate the weak anthropic principle--not to state that chance was responsible for everything. I have no knowledge of how things came about- I just have to trust a sound methodology--Intelligent Design offers nothing. If chance is the 'best' explanation to date, then sure we can tentatively say that until a more precise and accurate model is discovered.<br /><br />Re 'emotions' and 'cool logic': my harsh indictment of 'emotions' was rhetoric. Certainly I recognize their utility and necessity at the present time. I see in your statement that you understand how emotions came to be (via evolutionary means), and you seem to understand that they are only heuristics for the sake of shortcutting decision making. So like all heuristics, emotions offer faster 'performance' but at the sake of accuracy. Without emotions, we would have to use a lot of our brain to make even simple decisions, and we would certainly be eaten by lions before figuring out what to do! However, we have to frame emotions in this context, so that we know what 'authority' to give them. That was my only point. <br /><br />P.S. If you want to really see me squirm, you can start pressing this argument: If emotions are just approximations due to lack of 'brain performance', then what happens as we increase cognitive capacity? If we had intelligence capable of real-time, comprehensive, rational evaluation and we didn't need our primitive little emotions of 'fear' and 'jealousy' to drive us...would they just become vestigial? And eventually become useless, like our appendix? The paradox is then: should we just commit suicide (i.e. whats the point to living without some physiological motivation mechanism)? How can we separate good emotions from bad emotions-- can they even be categorized as such? This is where things get tricky...and I am less confident in my assumptions. However, for any short term, we can only hope that (a) we as individuals 'grow' and are able to emphasize rational, deliberate decision-making over knee-jerk emotional decision-making, and (b) socially we continue to 'progress' to encourage such growth.<br /><br />Thanks Aek for the opportunity to continue spouting my nonsense :-)<br /><br />Much Love,<br />StevePlanetx_123https://www.blogger.com/profile/02092798475390586321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-31068101568873075582009-05-21T03:43:11.372+10:002009-05-21T03:43:11.372+10:00On this website are pictures of how far we can alr...On <A HREF="http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com" REL="nofollow">this website</A> are pictures of how far we can already see into the universe. Only in the visible part there are (according to Dr Simon Driver of the Australian National University) 100 to 500 billion galaxies, with 70 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 (70 sextillion) stars - already ten times more than all the grains of sand on earth. His answer to the question, if he thinks there might be intelligent life out there? "It's inevitable."<br /><br />So yes it is proper to be Agnostic, not knowing. Others can't help knowing and may be called Gnostics. The Hindu Vedas and Upanishads (1500-400 BC) state: "There is a light that shines above this heaven, above all worlds, above everything that exists in the highest realms, beyond which there is no higher. This is the same light that shines within the heart of man ... As a thousand sparks from a well-blazing fire spring forth, each one like the rest, so from the Imperishable all kinds of beings come forth, my dear, and to Him return ... As oil in sesame seeds, as butter in cream, as water in river beds, as fire in friction sticks, so is the Self grasped in one's own self when one searches for Him with truthfulness and austerity ... He who knows the fine-drawn thread of which the creatures that we see are spun, who knows the thread of that same thread - he also knows the Ultimate ... Just as the flowing rivers disappear in the ocean, casting off name and shape, even so the knower [gnostic], freed from name and shape, attains to the Primal Soul, higher than the high ... Even as water becomes one with water, fire with fire, and air with air, so the mind becomes one with the Infinite Mind and thus attains final freedom ... From Him comes the transmigration of life and liberation, bondage in time and freedom in eternity ... Verily, He is the inner Self of all beings ... May God - who, in the mystery of His vision and power, transforms His white radiance into His many-colored creation - grant us the grace of pure vision."<br /><br />Useful books, IMHO:<br />+ <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Course-Miracles-Dr-Helen-Schucman/dp/1883360242" REL="nofollow">A Course In Miracles</A>, ACIM [culturally amazing that this book can exist at all.]<br />+ <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Ask-Given-Jerry-Hicks/dp/1401907997" REL="nofollow">Ask and It Is Given:</A> Learning to Manifest Your Desires - Esther & Jerry Hicks.<br />+ <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Hands-Light-Healing-Through-Energy/dp/0553345397" REL="nofollow">Hands of Light:</A> A Guide to Healing Through the Human Energy Field - Barbara Ann Brennan [former NASA scientist].<br />+ <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Mysteries-Was-Original-Pagan/dp/0609807986" REL="nofollow">The Jesus Mysteries</A> - Timothy Freke [comprehensively researched].<br />+ <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Heal-Your-Life/dp/0937611018" REL="nofollow">You Can Heal Your Life</A> - Louise Hay.<br /><br />Thank you Mboy this was fun .. and I worship the great people commenting here.Mr McCabbagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14885027387268457178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-46649303469496699532009-05-21T03:33:58.339+10:002009-05-21T03:33:58.339+10:00Landyn: Hey, I actually agree with almost everyth...Landyn: Hey, I actually agree with almost everything you said. And <I>Angels & Demons</I> is one of my favorite books. Have you seen the movie yet?<br /><br />Here's my favorite quote from that book: "Science tells me God must exist. My mind tells me I will never understand God. And my heart tells me I am not meant to."<br /><br />As a science major, I'm constantly amazed by nature and the universe. And it's just so elegant. It doesn't matter so much if it was due to chance or not, but simply that it IS. It's practically a miracle that things turn out the way they do at all.<br /><br />Planetx_123: Science is limited through its methodology as well as the people doing the science. Science can be flawed, facts can be changed. And you've stated just as much.<br /><br />Science can neither prove or disprove God, so that science should ever be used as an argument in the same breath as the existence of God is a futile one, I think.<br /><br />Chance is a tricky thing, because a lot of chance has a pattern. Pascal's triangle, fractals, Fibonacci's numbers, binomial theorem, all these describe probability and chance but have some pattern to it.<br /><br />Emotions, while seemingly counter to "cool" logic, has a purpose. Why do people fall in love and stick to each other? Why do adults coo over babies? Why do get angry in defense of something that means a lot to us? Evolution has bestowed emotions as an automatic response to make organisms do something right away about things. Yeah, it gets us humans in trouble nowadays cuz we're now outside our "original" environments.<br /><br />While a dangerous statement, I like to think that there's meaning in something. I don't know if you are, but if not, you should acquaint yourself with some Eastern religions/philosophies. It's interesting to note just how different a world-view they take.Aekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12183623849361560922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-3497992365359944162009-05-20T22:06:18.779+10:002009-05-20T22:06:18.779+10:00Sasha hear, hear.
This is the very nub;
"Religi...Sasha hear, hear.<br /><br />This is the very nub;<br /> "Religion was used to teach, but also it was a means to control the masses. "<br /><br />After you understand that fact the rest is just the system keeping you in your place.<br /><br />Human " civilisation " needs to free itself from the Abrahamic religions. These three with their compulsions and edicts are what humanity needs to grow out of.<br /><br />If the big bang was caused by imploding matter is god gravity ?<br /><br />I certainly hope that the human race is not the summit of evolution in the universe. But our fellow travellers in time are not angels just born closer to galatic central point.<br /><br />And you are not strange for thinking, thinking is what makes us what we are. <br /><br />And it proves there is hope for the X-box generation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-26385221892616905322009-05-20T18:02:42.808+10:002009-05-20T18:02:42.808+10:00@Landyn
Just to clarify a few things:
Science is j...@Landyn<br />Just to clarify a few things:<br />Science is just a methodology to create models of 'reality'. These models must agree with observation, and provide some predictive ability. When things disprove them, then the models have to be refined. Thus, science does not have anything to say about 'god' in the way that god is described historically. <br /><br />Also- atheism is NOT the claim that <I>there is no god</I>. It is just the absence of a belief in a deity. Claiming that there is no god would require evidence, which no one possesses (and vice versa).<br /><br />Regarding so-called 'intelligent design': please remember that we are just a blip in a vastness that is incomprehensible. If 99 chickens independently cross the road blindly, and 98 of them are hit by cars, then the one that makes it across may incorrectly infer that it is somehow special. And regardless of how the chicken feels about it, the reality is the same: it doesn't matter-- 98 chickens died. ID offers nothing useful--except making us feel good. So it should have no place when discussing what is 'real' and 'fake'. I believe that we should be very skeptical of anything that is especially ergonomic to our naive emotions (just like used car salesmen and prostitutes).<br /><br />We <I>love</I> to think that we are special, just as we love to masturbate--it fires neurotransmitters into synapses that cause our consciousness to 'feel' something that we have identified as pleasurable. But this process of 'emotions', while certainly useful and enjoyable, has nothing to do with reality. Our senses and emotions are notoriously poor at trustworthy communication. Eye-witnesses mis-remember things all the time. We 'fall in love' with many people every day. We eat fried food. These are all potentially damaging, completely constructions in our own minds. Thus, we have to be extra-careful when using these emotions as the basis for including theories of things as big as <I>the creation of the universe and the nature of reality</I>.<br /><br />Lastly, you state: "it seems downright arrogant and stupid to think that some of these puny collections of gray matter...have figured out existence". I couldn't agree more. This arrogance that you speak of, however, is the arrogance of self-importance and selfishness that is preached by religions (and probably most theists). Christianity, for example, asks you to distrust the rationality and logic that permeates the universe, and instead put <I>faith</I> in to teachings created by men, shamelessly for men (not women or slaves, etc.). And the fact that <I>almost every</I> religious text shares the obvious marks of human authorship (arrogance, shameless self-importance, focus on primal emotions)- should be a huge red flag that these works are not grounded in fact at all. They are interesting, and certainly there are many lessons to be learned (and unlearned)-- like Aesops fables-- but we shouldn't rely on them as the basis for justifying our pseudo-authority to posture about the nature of god.<br /><br />No- instead we should use logic, reasoning, and skepticism to discover what we can. We should stop fooling ourselves in thinking that we actually have some authority to make such claims that are so contrary to observation. I prefer humility; I prefer not to 'guess' or believe that I have some power or authority to speculate on 'god'...even as <I>tempting</I> as it is (given our emotional/physiological predispositions). I have to resign myself to the tools that are best suited for the jobs of deduction and discovery, and accept the fact that <B>I (we) just don't know</B>. Unsatisfying...yes; intellectually dishonest...no.<br /><br />I'm really sorry for the long comment. And please don't take any of this as me disrespecting your right to an opinion.<br /><br />Much Love,<br />StevePlanetx_123https://www.blogger.com/profile/02092798475390586321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-86636018263066184172009-05-20T16:53:15.681+10:002009-05-20T16:53:15.681+10:00well, im not sure really if anyone here cares, or ...well, im not sure really if anyone here cares, or will listen to my little 2 cents here, but here it goes anyway:<br /><br />I was raised in a super religious family. Church, scriptures, prayer, offerings, baptism, revelation, the whole 9 yards.<br /><br />Over time, I guess from personal experience (being on the receiving end) and also witnessing it happen to others, I have found religions (THE ORGANIZATIONS) to be very hypocritical to say the least.<br /><br />I believe in science. BUT, I actually do believe in God. I refuse to accept that any one religion is "the way" back to him though.<br /><br />It goes against some level of feeling deep within me to deny that there is a God. Everything around me attests to the fact that there is a higher power than us, and we are very cocky to think that we just happen to understand how everything works or that through math we can figure out how everything works.<br /><br />If a human body is a marvel of organic chemistry and biology fused into one self contained personage that is able to sustain itself with basic requirements AND is able to create future life, then that seems way too profound to be mere chance. <br /><br />Add to that that there are over 6 billion of these marvels of nature on one planet (in addition to millions of species of different animals, insects, reptiles, etc), 8 planets in a solar system, millions of solar systems in a galaxy, millions of galaxies in the universe, and still much more to be discovered, it seems downright arrogant and stupid to think that some of these puny collections of gray matter (however incredible they are) have figured out existence as it really is.<br /><br />Someone please read Angels and Demons. A lot of the things brought up in this book relate to how I feel about things in general. I strongly believe that science does not in ANY way disprove the existence of a God, but actually further strengthens that position.<br /><br />@Planetx, regardless of our definition of "time", there are certain things that had to have happened for "time" to start as we know it. Based on my limited, but decent, knowledge of fundamental principles, it seems that all these things had to be started in motion by <B>something</B>, and I can't bring myself to accept that the "something" starting this all was simply chance.<br /><br />Seriously, read Angels and Demons people, I think it's my favorite book ever because of how much I found myself agreeing with what was said in it.<br /><br />I dont pretend to know God's invlovement in our everyday lives (though I wish/hope he is involved), this was just to say my opinion on if there IS a God.<br /><br />I am not disproving or proving anyone's opinions on here; I am merely stating my own. I respect all views and (try) to love everyone.<br /><br /><33v1b2n3m4https://www.blogger.com/profile/01843429813659405016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-84223026150841761042009-05-20T03:10:00.000+10:002009-05-20T03:10:00.000+10:00I'm not sure I have much to add, except to say tha...I'm not sure I have much to add, except to say thank you to MB for starting this discourse. The construction of my own personal belief system around creator, faith, and morality has been an interesting journey. I was raised Jewish, studied philosophy and comparative religion in college, and have somehow synthesized this into a belief system that works for me. I think every rational person should take the time to create their own understanding of the world and how they relate to it best, rather than blindly accept the teachings of others.<br /><br />What shines through in some of these posts is that there are many people who have done just as I suggested. Some land right smack in the middle of an organized religion that matches their beliefs. Others land somewhere else. That's ok. It's personal, and we all have to live in our own skin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-38419763851346419342009-05-20T00:15:00.000+10:002009-05-20T00:15:00.000+10:00Paraphrase of John 3:16: "For God so hated humanit...Paraphrase of John 3:16: "For God so hated humanity that he gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever does not believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life being tortured for all eternity in Hell without hope of forgiveness."<br /><br />David Hume (1711-1776): "The primary religion of mankind arises chiefly from an anxious fear of future events; and what ideas will naturally be entertained of invisible, unknown powers, while men lie under dismal apprehensions of any kind, may easily be conceived. Every image of vengeance, severity, cruelty, and malice must occur, and must augment the ghastliness and horror which oppresses the amazed religionist. And no idea of perverse wickedness can be framed, which those terrified devotees do not readily, without scruple, apply to their deity."<br /><br />Chuang Tzu (ca 370-301 BC): "You can't discuss the ocean with a well frog - he is confined to the limits of his hole. You can't discuss ice with a summer insect - he is bound to a single season. You can't discuss the Great Way with a cramped scholar of limited views - he is shackled by his doctrines."<br /><br />Napoleon Bonaparte: "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."Mr McCabbagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14885027387268457178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-17452906806165874052009-05-19T22:06:00.000+10:002009-05-19T22:06:00.000+10:00@Zee
It's true that 'belief in god causes violenc...@Zee<br /><br />It's true that 'belief in god causes violence" is an incorrect statement. However, it's when people think that their belief in god gives them the right to injure or be violent towards other people that there's a problem. <br /><br />I agree with you that it's human nature that violence comes from. But it being in our nature does not make acts of violence justifiable, as I hope you'll agree. Religion has often been used in history to excuse violent acts. I don't have a problem with religion in general, but I do have a problem with it being used as an excuse for peoples actions, as it has been in events such as the crusades. I also don't think anyone should have the right to tell someone that their belief system is the only correct one, then try and suppress anyone else making similar claims about other religions.<br /><br />@NG<br /><br />I also disagree with the statement that there would be more deaths caused by religion than anything else. However, the number of needless deaths that are caused by religion is a massive number. What about the teenagers who kill themselves because according to everything they are raised to believe they are something wrong, sick and perverted? Or the people who are killed by others, purely because according to their beliefs it's the right thing to do?Tombi04https://www.blogger.com/profile/08683930244071445937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-53998614393820712462009-05-19T21:13:00.000+10:002009-05-19T21:13:00.000+10:0038 comments! I'd better make it 39.
I've always be...38 comments! I'd better make it 39.<br />I've always been an atheist, I've never seen the point of believing in a higher reality. It seems to me that we're better off putting our energy into the here and now, making our material reality better. God is a distraction to that. <br /><br />I just commented on Kinderfield on my personal contact with religion. That's what getting to Melbourne meant for me.billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766254524955556469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-20902587684935688362009-05-19T12:25:00.000+10:002009-05-19T12:25:00.000+10:00yea i dont believe in god either. never have and ...yea i dont believe in god either. never have and never will. go us!!!Daily Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02647751888887814010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-34837530071650374712009-05-19T10:56:00.000+10:002009-05-19T10:56:00.000+10:00Great post! I like your comments. Take a look at h...Great post! I like your comments. Take a look at http://www.whatyoubelieve.com, some good things to think about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-4383418452348280582009-05-19T10:38:00.000+10:002009-05-19T10:38:00.000+10:00personally, i've never really liked the idea of re...personally, i've never really liked the idea of religion. i find tht idea of living your life according to some book to very opressive : /<br /><br />and even more than that, i absolutetely hate the indoctrination of religion. it's illegal as it breaks one of the key freedoms of my countries constitution-- freedom of thought, and freedom of opinion<br /><br /><br />though, some religions like confusionism are of course on a different level than religions like christianity, or islamTylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723722462386758331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-73005419896549723762009-05-19T08:44:00.000+10:002009-05-19T08:44:00.000+10:00a question: why does the universe have to be a cre...a question: why does the universe have to be a creation? why can't it just be always in existence? if the universe needs to have a beginning, why doesn't god need a beginning? ok that's 3.freedumluvrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15673130753904988896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-25378055502157289062009-05-19T05:59:00.000+10:002009-05-19T05:59:00.000+10:00Jan Christiaan Smuts (1870-1950), OM, CH, ED, KC, ...Jan Christiaan Smuts (1870-1950), OM, CH, ED, KC, FRS, Field Marshal, Prime Minister: "Without Mind the universe would have harboured no passionate exaltations; no poignant regrets or bitter sorrows. Truth, beauty and goodness would have been there, but unknown, unloved. They would have been cold and passionless like the distant stars, and would never have become the great ideals thrilling and inspiring men and women to deathless action. Into that great dream-garden of Eden, Mind the disturber has entered, and with Mind sin and sorrow, faith and love, the great vision of knowledge, and the conscious effort to master all hampering conditions and to work out the great redemption. To the music of the universe there has thus been added a new note, that of laughter and tears, a new undertone of the human, which enriches all the rest. It is no longer a song of the Elder Gods, but of the intertwining of the cosmos with human destiny, of the suffering which has become consecrated and illuminated by the great visions, of the magic power of knowledge to work out new enchantments, to break the dumb routine, to set the captive spirit free, and to blaze new paths to the immortal goal. Mind has thus added an infinity of light and shade and colour, of inward character and conscious content. Without Mind the universe would have been an altogether dull affair, however unimaginably grand in other respects."Mr McCabbagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14885027387268457178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-17390763261326807342009-05-19T05:06:00.000+10:002009-05-19T05:06:00.000+10:00@Plx_123
No but to attack religion because it "cau...@Plx_123<br />No but to attack religion because it "causes" violence is non-sense. Humans cause violence not religion.<br /><br />Also, I don't think you understand what I was getting at. Unless you don't want or need, you not at peace. Unless you do not consume you are at war with nature. Unless you are in conflict with no person you are not at peace. Peace is not something we experience here on Earth. You say you are a man of science. Then you must want to know more and discover more. That need to obtain more knowledge means you are not at peace.Zeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397990946837586745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-56659946226558189792009-05-19T04:18:00.000+10:002009-05-19T04:18:00.000+10:00@zee
Did I miss someone trying to claim that witho...@zee<br />Did I miss someone trying to claim that without religion there is no violence? I can't imagine someone trying to claim this. <br /><br />And I can't speak to all of this nonsense of god being any kind of naive human emotion (love et al--what does this even mean!?), but I can guarantee you that I am perfectly at 'peace' knowing that I have used the sum of my abilities as a human to come to logical, rational (traits shared by that which we know is of god) conclusion. A conclusion grounded in humility and without spurious emotional, selfish, and arbitrary presumptions. <br /><br />At least MB knew what he was getting in to, by observation that the title includes 'Here we go!' :-)<br /><br />StevePlanetx_123https://www.blogger.com/profile/02092798475390586321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-58239255653465417342009-05-19T03:39:00.000+10:002009-05-19T03:39:00.000+10:00The notation that belief in god causes violence is...The notation that belief in god causes violence is pretty ridiculous. Karl Marx intended communism to be an atheist institution and it destroyed the lives of millions. When the Mongols went and conquered their empire, it was hardly to spread religious beliefs. To assume that we would have no violence if we had no faith in god does no add up. Violence comes from human nature. We have two motivating factors that often come in conflict. First we have the drive for something better (be that resources, status, of sense of worth). We has have the drive to preserve what we already had. Often this world is seen as a zero sum game so somebody's drive for more interferes with another's drive for preservation. It is only natural.<br /><br />@NG<br />I personally disagree with the idea that God IS Love. God is loving but I don't think that means he has unconditional love for us. If I was to put an abstract idea to associate with my perception of God, I would say God is Justice and Peace. God is Justice because no true justice can be served on earth. God is Peace because only within God will we ever have true Peace.Zeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397990946837586745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-63084151157293337102009-05-19T03:01:00.000+10:002009-05-19T03:01:00.000+10:00Adolf Hitler (1889-1945): "The national government...Adolf Hitler (1889-1945): "The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past years."<br /><br />Dr Paul Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945): "At night I sit in my chamber and read the Bible. Far in the distance roars the sea. Then I lie down and think for a long time about the calm and pale man from Nazareth."<br /><br />Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller (1892-1984): "In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I did not speak up, for I was not a Communist. Then they came for the sick, the so-called incurables, and I did not speak up, for I was not mentally ill. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up, for I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak up, for I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak up, for I was a Protestant. And then they came for me, and by that time, no one was left to speak up."<br /><br />Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832): "As man is, so is his God. And thus is God oft strangely odd."<br /><br />Thomas Paine (1737-1809): "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."Mr McCabbagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14885027387268457178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-84116470218429585792009-05-19T02:32:00.000+10:002009-05-19T02:32:00.000+10:00@ Sasha — Thanks for the clarification. We don't a...@ Sasha — Thanks for the clarification. We don't agree about everything, but we agree that the Creator is Love, and that people can become dogmatic about things that are open to discussion and interpretation.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-9724418702233709812009-05-19T02:00:00.000+10:002009-05-19T02:00:00.000+10:00I don't recall saying the bible was completely fal...I don't recall saying the bible was completely false. I know that there are many truths written in it that we have no way of supporting. I apologize that it seems I said anything that cemented. I think when I said "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" I didn't punctuate or finish the thought properly.(Punctuation and I have always had issues with each other) I guess what I'm getting at is the fact that so many folks use it to preach against things they disagree with and hold onto those dogmas with a deathgrip. In the folks I've observed firsthand, my father and other members of my backwoods family, it is their interpretation of things or nothing at all. They advocate fighting to the death over things that are all open to interpretation. I've seen and was taught a lot of hatred for anything "different". It took me a lot of time to move past that and allow myself to try to be happy. I guess in some ways it's a battle I'm still fighting with my family and myself; so I may tend to have "kneejerk" reactions because of that. I'm dogmatic in my anti dogmatic thoughts/feelings I guess you could say. In the long run I prefer to think that the Creator, insert whatever label you are most comfortable with for him/her/it, comes from a loving place. We all have the capacity to be godlike for lack of a better wording. Just because someone's view is not your view does not mean that it's not the correct view for that person. To me you don't have to go to church/temple/mosque or any kinds of meetings of like minded people to have a good spirtual relationship with the deity/'s of your choice. When it comes down to it most, if not all, religions teach the same basic principles. Be a good person, do nice things, resist temptations that make you become someone you'd rather not, etc etc. I think you get what I'm saying. So sorry if I was inflexible in my statements earlier. If there is one thing I don't like to see myself as it's inflexible. <br />Peace, thanks for listening to my rambling again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-90134644182553808792009-05-19T01:15:00.000+10:002009-05-19T01:15:00.000+10:00@ Sasha — "Religious zealots are responsible for m...@ Sasha — "Religious zealots are responsible for more wars and deaths than probably all other reasons combined in recorded history."<br />People say this a lot, but I really doubt that it is true. To be sure, there were the Muslim wars of conquest and the Christian pushback in the Crusades, the Thirty Years War, and various persecutions. But when I think of the clashes of empires in classical antiquity, the barbarian invasions of the Roman Empire, the Hundred Years War between England and France, all the other dynastic wars of Europe, the European colonizations of the Americas, Africa, and parts of Asia, the Napoleonic Wars, the American Civil War, the Franco-Prussian War, World War I, World War II, Korea, Viet Nam, and the Gulf Wars — all of which were about control of territory — it seems to me that religion is a distant second.<br /><br />"All of these facts, among many many others. Leads me to believe, that anyone that takes anything in those writings as absolute fact is A.)Totally ignorant of FACT or B.)A complete and utter moron that refuses to think for themselves."<br />When it comes to "absolute fact" there is very little in history that we can take as "absolute" fact, especially when it comes to discrete events such as the movements of a certain general in a certain battle. This becomes increasingly true the farther back in time we go.<br />I certainly agree that it would be a serious mistake to take *everything* in scripture as absolute fact, but I also think that it goes too far to say no knowledgeable, intelligent person can take "anything" in it as fact in the same way we take events recorded by secular historians of the time as facts. There was an ancient Israel; there was a Jesus who taught and was crucified; there was a Paul who preached in various parts of the Roman Empire.<br />And copyists' errors are not highly significant, IMO. If you take all the places where the manuscripts disagree, those disagreements do not significantly alter the overall message.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-28331342914138881072009-05-18T23:00:00.000+10:002009-05-18T23:00:00.000+10:00It's a rough subject to broach. In my opinion all...It's a rough subject to broach. In my opinion all religions are there as guidelines, not absolute fact. The "Bible" alone has over 30,000 known errors. The oldest copies of the earliest writings were hundreds of years old when they were written. They all were hand copied by scribes, from older copies copied by other scribes and so on and so on. It has been proven by textural critics that often scribes would make mistakes and also often they would "correct" an earlier text in an attempt to make it easier to understand. Or sometimes to support a personal viewpoint they themselves or the person paying for the copy held. <br /> All of these facts, among many many others. Leads me to believe, that anyone that takes anything in those writings as absolute fact is A.)Totally ignorant of FACT or B.)A complete and utter moron that refuses to think for themselves. <br />Faith has many good purposes in life and the world. I have no issue with people of faith, so long as they take the books of faith as guidelines, not absolute truths. Religion was used to teach, but also it was a means to control the masses. Religious zealots are responsible for more wars and deaths than probably all other reasons combined in recorded history. I grew up with a father that is a minister so I saw a whole lot of hypocrisy first hand and maybe I'm a little bit too harsh in my judgments. Essentially we're all human. We all are capable of making mistakes. We are all capable of growth, forgiveness and inner peace. But really it's up to us to find it within ourselves. Who or whatever the creator is, I believe it is of love. So in my opinion we are all loved, the hardest part is being able to love each other with all of our flaws included.<br />blah, blah, blah,<br /><br />Man I do go on too much.<br />Peace and thanks for listening, however far you got with my babble.<br /><br />Peace, Love and Greenbeans to you<br />SashaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387878206502427111.post-72165868374671473852009-05-18T17:09:00.000+10:002009-05-18T17:09:00.000+10:00@Planetx_123 — You seem to be saying saying that t...@Planetx_123 — You seem to be saying saying that the only genuine knowledge we have is what we have through the methodologies of the natural sciences. I see no reason to accept such a restrictive and narrow-minded notion; and certainly it is not a scientific idea, but a philosophical one.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.com